General: Irish potato famine

Subject: Irish potato famine
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
From: moosmeat (moosmeat at mindspring.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:39:38 -0800
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Watched a two hour program yesterday about the potato famine in Ireland in the first part of the last century. The potato crop failed so many people starved to death. My question is how could they have ignored the abundance in the seas around them? While they were starving there were probably ten million edible fish and other sea creatures just swimming around and waiting for the frying pan.
From: dmtwg at webtv.net (Regina Holt)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:28:53 -0500 (EST)
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It is my understandng that it was illegal for the Irish to be in possession of boats and misc. fishing stuff. This was oral history through my paternal grandmother, whose grandparents survived the Hunger. There were also other repressive anti-Irish laws courtesy of the British monarch. I, too, do not understand the why they just did not go ahead and fish. At the same time I am a well-fed American and not someone in the middle of a famine nor am I a victim of an oppressive army of occupation. ob food: My brother, the chef, is visiting beginning Sat. He has promised me salmon...
Gina, granddaughter of Miriam Holt nee Leahy of Killarney
From: tackneyny at aol.combatBoots (TackneyNY)
Date: 20 Mar 2001 02:28:51 GMT
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>It is my understandng that it was illegal for the Irish to be in
>possession of boats and misc. fishing stuff.

That's true, and the fishing that was done at all had to be imported to England for the English to eat and to be imported to wherever they could get good prices. If you were caught stealing any of the fish you were punished.
From: Roxan-NO Spam (roxannospam at panetwork.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:13:58 -0500
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Most of these people who starved were too poor, to start with, to own a boat. A lot of the coast line is rocky and hard to fish from. I am of Irish descent and it sicken me to see how these poor people where treated.
From: dmtwg at webtv.net (Regina Holt)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:43:15 -0500 (EST)
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It has to be kept in mind that the Penal Laws made it illegal for the Irish to get an education, to b a merchant, to vote, to name only three things. They were at that time and had been for quite a bit of time, an occupied people. Sufficient quantities of grain were produced in Ireland and were sent to England as was any fish. I like to think I would have responded with lighting rags stuffed into jugs of potcheen and liberating foodstuffs from the manor house kitchen. And then it comes back to the fact I am well- educated, fed, and not oppressed. ob food: Charlieliam's recent recipe for Irish stew is cooking as I write this. Just like my grandmother used to make...My only change was to add a stalk of celery as she did and to alter the portion of spuds to make it more diabetically correct.
Gina, 95+% celtic and proud of it
From: dcole100 (dcole100 at email.msn.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:30:04 -0500
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Although I find it hard to believe, I heard over the weekend that the potato was such a core item in their diet that a family of 6(?) would consume 250lbs of potato a week. You can't take something that is that important to one's diet and be able to replace it instantly.

Good luck,
Dan Cole
From: RON-59 at webtv.net (RON)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:28:41 -0500 (EST)
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In my reading of Irish history it was potato blight and not a famine. The Irish farmers were tenants and their staple food was potato. The vegetables and livestock were in abundance but were owned by the British.

Many starving Irish sailed to Britain on their way to America on the same ships carrying the foodstuffs they had grown to the landowners in Britain.
From: Bison at dot.com (Bison)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:53:23 GMT
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Ron wrote:
>Many starving Irish sailed to Britain on their way to
>America on the same ships carrying the foodstuffs they had grown to the
>landowners in Britain.

The British Government at that time was a big exponent of the free trade theory, which basically meant the government did not interfere with trade. The idea was that market forces would automatically cause food to be shipped to where it was most needed, as if there was a shortage, prices would go up, and traders would ship to where they got the best prices.

Unfortunately, this theory did not work in the case of the Irish potato famine, as the rural poor did not have the money to pay the higher prices. It was the failure of this free trade theory which caused the obscene practice of food being shipped out of famine areas.

The British Government did nothing, but they thought nothing was the right thing to do. They were wrong.
From: Michael Edelman (mje at spamcop.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:07:18 -0500
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Bison wrote:
> The British Government at that time was a big exponent of the free trade
> theory, which basically meant the government did not interfere with trade. The
> idea was that market forces would automatically cause food to be shipped to
> where it was most needed, as if there was a shortage, prices would go up, and
> traders would ship to where they got the best prices.

That's an oversimplification, and also wrong.

There are a number of myths surrounding the potato famine, the first of which is that it was a sudden and unexpected blight that triggered it. In fact, there were at least 24 crop failures of varying degrees of severity between 1739 and 1846. It was well known that potatoes suffered from regular blights of this nature, but the way the British ruled Ireland prevented the Irish from doing much about it.

The second myth is that laissez-faire policies led to the export of grain and hence the starvation of the Irish.

What hurt the Irish peasantry was not free trade. In fact, the only thing approaching free trade was instituted by the Peel government in the form of the repeal of the Corn Laws, which prohibited the import of grain to England. The myth is that this led to the export of grain that could have fed the Irish. In fact, something quite opposite was the case.

The repeal of the Corn Laws had the effect both of creating a demand in England for Irish grain, thereby generating employment for the Irish, and allowing the import of subsidized American grain to be sold to the Irish to relieve starvation. This was unpopular with the English Aristocracy, who didn't care for the competition from overseas, which hurt the price of English grain, and helped bring down the Peel government. The Peel government supplied famine relief aid in the amount of $8,000,000 pounds in the first year of the 1846 famine.

The successive government decided to leave the food supply in private hands, but it was a far thing from laissez-faire, since the life of farmers and market were very tightly controlled by the British government. Irish tenant farmers were restricted to very poor plots on which little would grow *but* potatoes. There was no market in capital that would allow them to finance the purchase of better land or acquire the tools needed to take up other trades.

What led to the eventual relief was the intervention of numerous charitable institutions, notably the Quakers, who set up schools in various trades (particularly lace making) and financed the construction of the Irish fishing fleet through small loans to individuals. This led to a more diversified economy that was not as dependant upon the English masters for food and shelter. Freed of this heavy-handed regulation, a real free market flourished in hand made goods and fish, and saved the Irish.

-- mike
From: patscga at aol.com (Patscga)
Date: 22 Mar 2001 23:05:23 GMT
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Gee, you must have learned history in England. You're wrong. If you would like me to recommend books available in this country, I would be happy to provide you with a list.
Pat in Atlanta
From: Darkginger (darkginger at iol.ie)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:33:39 GMT
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For anyone interested in this subject, possibly the best book available is 'The Great Hunger' by Cecil Woodham-Smith, ISBN 0-14-014515-X

Jo
From: Michael Edelman (mje at spamcop.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:52:33 -0500
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Patscga wrote:
> Gee, you must have learned history in England. You're wrong. If you would
> like me to recommend books available in this country, I would be happy to
> provide you with a list.

Sorry to confuse the discussion by introducing documented facts, but hey, I'm sure you'll get over it ;-)

-- mike
From: Christine Ashby (cmashby at ozemail.com.au)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:42:21 +1100
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Patscga wrote:
> Gee, you must have learned history in England. You're wrong.

In what regard is he wrong? About the effect of the repeal of the Corn Laws? Or the initiatives taken by the Quakers? Or what?

He isn't wrong about the Peel government's famine relief, that's documented fact.

Just out of interest, which country do you live in, that there are any books which are unavailable? In this country - Australia - there are no restrictions on the importation of books, and you can get hold of pretty well anything ever published through inter-library loans, though you might have to wait a while.

Christine
(who loves watching historians squabble...)
From: Bison at dot.com (Bison)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:23:00 GMT
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Patscga wrote:
>Gee, you must have learned history in England. You're wrong.

???
The story he (Michael Edelman) tells doesn't reflect very well on the English. He says the British Government (after the Peel Government) did nothing about the famine and it was up to private individuals and instituitions to help.

Or are you taking the line that it was deliberate genocide?
From: TL (tonysl at ihug.co.nz)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:42:08 +1200
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I missed the start of this thread, but I did some study on the Irish Potato Famine a while back.

Even at the height of the potato infestation, more than enough was produced to feed the whole population. What turned it into a disaster was the fact that the (absentee English) landlords still insisted on taking their full cut of the harvest - not a percentage, but an absolute quantity. So if a smallholder produced 400 bushels before the famine struck, of which the landlord took 150, but only 180 bushels during it, the landlord still wanted 150. In fact, if the harvest was only 120 bushels, the tenant was evicted for non-payment of rent. This was practically universal. Some private individuals and institutions may have helped, but most counted their rent as more important than the livelihoods, and even lives, of their tenants.

It may not have been "deliberate" genocide, but the effect was similar.
From: kwjim at nospam.net (James)
Date: 22 Mar 2001 01:57:02 GMT
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Ireland is approximately 300 miles long and 170 miles wide at its widest point. At the time of the famine there were no automobiles. Most of the population was rural. So the number of people living near enough to the ocean to catch fish was small. And those having the equipment and expertise to do so was even smaller. And fish are perishable and need to be eaten quickly (no refrigeration).