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Subject: daphne potatos
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking

============================

From: ccracker03[at]aol.com (Ccracker03)
Date: 11 Apr 2003 20:49:52 GMT
--------
has anyone else heard of these  if so can i have the receipe

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Subject: Re: daphne potatos
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
From: ktsheehy3624[at]cs.com (Ktsheehy3624)
Date: 11 Apr 2003 21:00:15 GMT
--------
Never heard of daphne potatoes. I've heard of potatoes
d'auphinois or a gratin of potatoes d'auphinois, if that might
be what you mean.

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:24:59 GMT
--------
Ktsheehy3624 wrote:
> Never heard of daphne potatoes. I've heard of potatoes
> d'auphinois or a gratin of potatoes d'auphinois, if that might
> be what you mean.

Dauphinois isn't a contraction.  I only mention this because it may prevent
a search engine from working properly.  It's pronounced like dough faw
nwahz.

The dish comes from the Dauphiné province of France in the western Alps.
Although dauphin in French literally translates to dolphin in English,
it came to refer to this region when the ruler of the area took this to be
his surname.  The term became a royal title and 'Le Dauphin' refers to the
'heir apparent' to the throne of France, as well as the ruler of this
region, prior to the fall of the monarchy.

The Cordon Bleu recipe calls for potatoes sliced 1/8" thick to be boiled for
10-15 minutes in milk with salt, fresh grated nutmeg and a Bouquet Garni,
stirred enough to prevent scorching the milk.  The milk is discarded.  The
interior of a gratin dish is rubbed with sliced garlic cloves and brushed
with softened butter (unsalted).  The potatoes are layered in the dish and
seasoned with salt and freshly ground pepper during the process.  Heavy
cream is brought to a boil and poured over the potatoes, then all is topped
with grated Gruyere cheese and baked at 400F for 40 min.

The proportions are 6 cups milk, 2.5 lbs potatoes, 2/3 cup heavy cream, and
4 oz cheese, using a 9x13 gratin dish.  All other ingredients are to taste
or assumed, except that 2 cloves of garlic are specified.

Note that it's a cream sauce, not a cheese sauce.  Only the potatoes' own
starch is needed to thicken the sauce.  It may be topped with breadcrumbs
instead of cheese.  A gratin dish has short sides and a large surface area
relative to the quantity it holds to maximize the size of the browned top
crust, so try keep this in mind when choosing another kind of pan.

============================

From: ktsheehy3624[at]cs.com (Ktsheehy3624)
Date: 11 Apr 2003 23:30:08 GMT
--------
J Quick wrote:
>Dauphinois isn't a contraction.  I only mention this because it 
>may prevent a search engine from working properly.  It's 
>pronounced like dough faw nwahz.

The contraction was my lapse. I know how to pronounce it.
Actually, I know everything else covered by your lecture.

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:45:41 GMT
--------
Ktsheehy3624 wrote:
> The contraction was my lapse. I know how to pronounce it.
> Actually, I know everything else covered by your lecture.

I hope it didn't sound as if I was 'lecturing', because I didn't intend that
tone.  I was just using your message as an opportunity to fill in the
background a bit for those who might find it of interest.  Sorry if that
wasn't clear.  :-)

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:27:20 -0400
--------
J Quick wrote:
> The proportions are 6 cups milk, 2.5 lbs potatoes, 2/3 cup heavy cream, and
> 4 oz cheese, using a 9x13 gratin dish.  All other ingredients are to taste
> or assumed, except that 2 cloves of garlic are specified.
>
> Note that it's a cream sauce, not a cheese sauce.  Only the potatoes' own
> starch is needed to thicken the sauce.  It may be topped with breadcrumbs
> instead of cheese.  A gratin dish has short sides and a large surface area
> relative to the quantity it holds to maximize the size of the browned top
> crust, so try keep this in mind when choosing another kind of pan.

This is not what you'll be served in a restaurant of the region.  The
veritable Gratin Dauphinois consists of thinly sliced potatoes seasoned with
salt and pepper, perfumed with garlic and cooked in butter and cream.
That's all.  If you would like the references I should be happy to supply
them.

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 04:21:31 GMT
--------
Anthony wrote:
> This is not what you'll be served in a restaurant of the region.  The
> veritable Gratin Dauphinois consists of thinly sliced potatoes seasoned with
> salt and pepper, perfumed with garlic and cooked in butter and cream.
> That's all.  If you would like the references I should be happy to supply
> them.

I'd appreciate any references you have as I enjoy comparing recipe
variations to get ideas to incorporate into my own versions.  I might visit
the restaurants on my next trip.

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 06:57:01 -0400
--------
J Quick wrote:
> I'd appreciate any references you have as I enjoy comparing recipe
> variations to get ideas to incorporate into my own versions.  I might visit
> the restaurants on my next trip.

A most interesting site which is of the region and in which you will find
several recipes for gratin dauphinois is at:
http://www.gratindauphinois.com/
Here is Elizabeth David on the subject:
"Some recipes, Escoffier's and Austin de Croze's among them, include cheese
and eggs, making it very similar to a gratin savoyard; but other regional
authorities declare that the authentic gratin dauphinois is made only with
potatoes and thick fresh cream.  I give the second one which is, I think the
better one; it is also the easier.  And here's her recipe:
Peel 1 lb of yellow potatoes and slice them in even rounds no thicker than a
penny; this operation is very easy with the help of the mandoline.Rinse them
thoroughly on cold water - this is most important - and shake them dry in a
cloth.  Put them in layers in a shallow earthenware dish which has been
rubbed with garlic and well buttered.  Season with pepper and salt.  Pour
1/2 pint of thick cream over them; strew with little pieces of butter; cook
them for 1 1/2 hours in a low oven, Gas No. 2, 310 deg F.  During the last
ten minutes turn the oven up fairly high to get a fine golden crust on the
potatoes.  Serve in the dish in which they have been cooked.
Notes:  (1) Hers is an English 1/2 pint, or 10 fl ozs.  When i make the dish
I am cosiderably more liberal with the garlic, but that's a matter of
personal taste.

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:25:44 +0100
--------
Anthony wrote:
> A most interesting site which is of the region and in which you will find
> several recipes for gratin dauphinois is at:
> http://www.gratindauphinois.com/
> Here is Elizabeth David on the subject:

I learned to cook from David's books in my youth:)

Wonderful:)

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:06:09 -0400
--------
Ophelia wrote:
> I learned to cook from David's books in my youth:)
>
> Wonderful:)

Yes, she's great.  I bought a set of five of her books in paperback almost
40 years ago.  Three of the originals have survived, but the others have had
to be replaced because they died from over-use.  Others have of course been
added and all are still in use in my house.  What I like is that she writes
for the home cook, and simplifies rather than complicating.  She has a
tomato, potato and leek soup that blows people away, but couldn't be easier
to make. And she provides interesting stories and background, rather like
M.F.K. Fisher.

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:21:38 +0100
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Yes, she's great.  I bought a set of five of her books in paperback almost
> 40 years ago.  Three of the originals have survived, but the others have had
> to be replaced because they died from over-use.  Others have of course been
> added and all are still in use in my house.  What I like is that she writes
> for the home cook, and simplifies rather than complicating.  She has a
> tomato, potato and leek soup that blows people away, but couldn't be easier
> to make. And she provides interesting stories and background, rather like
> M.F.K. Fisher.

Amen:)) although I don't know M F K fisher

I learned all my well loved Italian cooking and bread from her too  Did you
read An Omlette and a Glass of Wine?   I too have worn out many and had to
replace.. but my original Italian cooking  and her Bread and Yeast cookery
still sit on the bookshelf next to their copies.  In fact I have worn out 2
of each:)

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:05:58 -0400
--------
Ophelia wrote:

> Amen:)) although I don't know M F K fisher

M.F.K. Fisher is sort of the American Elizabeth David.  Worth looking out
for!

> I learned all my well loved Italian cooking and bread from her too  Did you
> read An Omlette and a Glass of Wine

Yes indeed.

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:04:27 GMT
--------
Anthony wrote:
> A most interesting site which is of the region and in which you will find
> several recipes for gratin dauphinois is at:
> http://www.gratindauphinois.com/
> Here is Elizabeth David on the subject:
> "Some recipes, Escoffier's and Austin de Croze's among them, include cheese
> and eggs, making it very similar to a gratin savoyard; but other regional
> authorities declare that the authentic gratin dauphinois is made only with
> potatoes and thick fresh cream.  I give the second one which is, I think the
> better one; it is also the easier.  And here's her recipe: [snip]

Thanks for the reference.   The site was interesting, although it reflects
that this recipe is rather controversial and suggests a certain degree of
zealotry.  The recipes on that site vary considerably among themselves.
Nutmeg is included in many of them.  Parboiling in milk is also frequently
done.  A few add cheese and eggs, while others say that this is never to be
done, specifically saying that cheese makes it a Savoyard gratin.  The only
indisputable ingredients are potatoes cooked in a dairy liquid, with salt &
pepper, and even then you'll get no agreement on the kind of potatoes.  All
the rest have varying degrees of use.  Garlic is the most accepted, nutmeg a
close second place, while a cheese/white sauce, eggs, milk instead of cream,
and such are generally rejected as being something else (but not necessarily
bad on their own merits).

If you have any other references, I'd be pleased to check them out as well!

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:09:00 -0400
--------
J Quick wrote:
> Thanks for the reference.   The site was interesting, although it reflects
> that this recipe is rather controversial and suggests a certain degree of
> zealotry.

Controversial?  I'll say.  Did you read the forum?  These people are at each
others throats.  Wonderful to see such concern over cooking a few spuds.
Anyhow, here is an amusing, (I think), story from Docteur Edouard Pomiane
which shall be, I promise, my absolute last word on the subject.

"Not long ago I attended the monthly dinner of the Academie des Gastronomes,
a grave assemblage composed of forty members each with an especially refined
analytical judgement of taste in cooking.  They served us a gratin
dauphinois.  I must say it was abominable and bore no resemblance to the
dish which one eats in the Alps of the Dauphine.  We all left, without a
pang, the gratin on our plates, and the conversation took its course.
First of all what is a gratin dauphinois?  It consists of thin slices of
potato cooked in the oven in an earthenware dish, swimming in a smooth cream
and perfumed with garlic.  Now the concoction which was served to us didn't
taste of garlic and instead of the cream, it was covered with a sort of
overcooked scrambled egg.  Since the gratin has to be baked for at least
three quarters of an hour, you can imagine that one must never use eggs when
making it.  They would, of necessity, be overcooked.
Gravely, three members of the Academie des Gastronomes rose to their feet
and gave their opinion on the way a gratin should be made.  All three were
Dauphinois, or nearly.
Not being a Dauphinois myself , I could only listen in silence, but I took
notes and have adopted the method which I shall give you now
.
1 1/2 lbs Dutch potatoes
3/4 pint of milk
1/3 pint double cream
4 cloves of garlic
1/2 teaspoon flour

Ideally this dish should be made in a round earthenware dish - the sort of
rough country dish one can buy cheaply in the market places of france.  For
some reason an oblong dish is not considered quite right.
Chop the garlic very finely.  Wash the potatoes, peel them and dry them
carefully.  Cut them in very fine slices.
Cover the bottom of the dish with sliced potato.  Sprinkle with salt, pepper
and garlic.  Continue with a second layer and so on until all of your
potatos are used up.  Meantime heat the milk and when it is boiling pour it
into the dish.
Put the cream into a bowl and mix it with 1/2 teaspoonful of flour.  Pour it
over the potatoes and put the dish into a 400 dg F oven.  After 50 minutes
raise the heat and when the gratin is a beautiful golden brown, serve it.
Follow the method I have described and you can be sure of a very pleasant
quarter of an hour enjoying the result."

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:21:55 +0100
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Controversial?  I'll say.  Did you read the forum?  These people are at each
> others throats.  Wonderful to see such concern over cooking a few spuds.
> Anyhow, here is an amusing, (I think), story from Docteur Edouard Pomiane
> which shall be, I promise, my absolute last word on the subject.

LOL Marvellous.  Thanks for sharing:)

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:42:20 GMT
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Gravely, three members of the Academie des Gastronomes rose to their feet
> and gave their opinion on the way a gratin should be made.  All three were
> Dauphinois, or nearly.

Typically French.  <smile>  The food forums on websites such as the one you
gave can be rather funny.  There always seems to be a message that
translates as follows.

"I am in dire desperation.  I don't see how I can ever show my face in front
of my wife/husband/family/associates again.  Please help me understand where
I went wrong.  The embarrassment is profound.  For dinner last night, the
sauce separated.  Should I just throw myself off the building now?"

This same sentiment is what is so funny about the legend of Vatel, which was
made into a good movie recently starring Depardieu.  I won't spoil the
ending.  I'll just say that receiving bad fish can be disheartening.
<snicker>

============================

From: Sophie <coyotita[at]free.fr>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:44:36 +0200
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Now the concoction which was served to us didn't
> taste of garlic and instead of the cream, it was covered with a sort of
> overcooked scrambled egg.  Since the gratin has to be baked for at least
> three quarters of an hour, you can imagine that one must never use eggs when
> making it.  They would, of necessity, be overcooked.

LOL
Thanks for this piece of dear old Pomiane.

He's right, too. However, what he describes is still often served in French
bistrots as "gratin dauphinois". Not too many people can really make it
right, even here.

============================

From: Jill McQuown <jmcquown[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:40:52 -0500
--------
J Quick wrote:
> The Cordon Bleu recipe calls for potatoes sliced 1/8" thick to be
> boiled for 10-15 minutes in milk with salt, fresh grated nutmeg and
> Gruyere cheese and baked at 400F for 40 min.
>
> Note that it's a cream sauce, not a cheese sauce.

Adding gruyere definitely makes it a cheese sauce.

Anthony wrote:
> This is not what you'll be served in a restaurant of the region.  The
> veritable Gratin Dauphinois consists of thinly sliced potatoes
> seasoned with salt and pepper, perfumed with garlic and cooked in
> butter and cream. That's all.  If you would like the references I
> should be happy to supply them.

I agree, Anthony.  This is much like American "Escalloped Potatoes".  No
cheese.  The cheese turns it into a gratin.  Not to say that isn't
delicious, but it's not the same thing.

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:24:43 GMT
--------
Jill McQuown wrote:

> Adding gruyere definitely makes it a cheese sauce.

The cheese isn't incorporated into the sauce.  It's a white sauce (in this
case thickened with potato starch) that may be topped with cheese.  That's
different.  Once you wolf it down, it becomes the same thing, but until
then, it's not.  ;-)

> I agree, Anthony.  This is much like American "Escalloped Potatoes".  No
> cheese.  The cheese turns it into a gratin.  Not to say that isn't
> delicious, but it's not the same thing.

In French cooking, cheese does not a gratin make.   Gratin is a browned top
crust.  Cheese is only one possible option to accomplish this.  Breadcrumbs
are another.  Browned potato is another.  Gratin Dauphinois is still a
gratin without cheese if it has a browned top.

To Americans "au gratin" has come to mean "cheesy", but that isn't the
original meaning of the term.  So long as you know where you are, you can
predict what you'll get.  In the USA, you'll get cheese in a gratin.  In
France, you'll get something browned on top.  To each his/her own.  In a
French restaurant in the USA, you better ask to determine what you'll be
served.  <smile>

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:44:11 -0400
--------
J Quick wrote:
> In French cooking, cheese does not a gratin make.   Gratin is a browned top
> crust.  Cheese is only one possible option to accomplish this. Breadcrumbs
> are another.  Browned potato is another.  Gratin Dauphinois is still a
> gratin without cheese if it has a browned top.

Absolutely correct!  Brava.

============================

From: Sophie <coyotita[at]free.fr>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:37:11 +0200
--------
Anthony wrote:
> This is not what you'll be served in a restaurant of the region.  The
> veritable Gratin Dauphinois consists of thinly sliced potatoes seasoned with
> salt and pepper, perfumed with garlic and cooked in butter and cream.
> That's all.  If you would like the references I should be happy to supply
> them.

I may add that there are other potato gratins in the French tradition, some
of which including eggs and cheese - the gratin savoyard has cheese and
cream. Hence the probable confusion. Eggs are a no-no.

Gratin dauphinois is notorious for not having any cheese among its
ingredients. As you say, only butter, cream and garlic. With a long baking
time to make it very melting.

I forgot to add some grated nutmeg in the recipe I just sent. Done now.

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:06:46 -0400
--------
Sophie wrote:
> I may add that there are other potato gratins in the French tradition, some
> of which including eggs and cheese - the gratin savoyard has cheese and
> cream.

Don't you mean cheese and consomme?

============================

From: Sophie <coyotita[at]free.fr>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:38:15 +0200
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Don't you mean cheese and consomme?

You're right. Most versions include cheese and beef consommé, no cream. But
in the Grand Massif and Chablais (parts of Savoie) I've rather seen
"popular" versions done with cheese and cream, and better too.

It's incredible how many recipes in Savoie involve potatoes, cheese, cream,
bouillon, bacon, in various combinations.

"Pommes boulangères" is another type of potato gratin that uses only
consommé (no cheese). As far as I know there is no particular regional
association to this. It's considered either Parisian or part of the bistrot
répertoire.

One common point between all those gratins is that the potatoes should be
melting, not too firm. Hence the use of "Dutch" potatoes (bintjes).

============================

From: Sophie <coyotita[at]free.fr>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:32:04 +0200
--------
J Quick wrote:
> Dauphinois isn't a contraction.  I only mention this because it may prevent
> a search engine from working properly.  It's pronounced like dough faw
> nwahz.

Or rather "dough phee nwah". Not Dauphinoise (nwahz) but Dauphinois.

The Cordon Bleu recipe is very fine but a bit complicated for such an
everyday dish. Here's Guy Savoy's recipe (apart from being a 3-star chef
he's also from Dauphiné).

Actually you may make gratin dauphinois any way you wish as long as you
don't put any cheese or eggs in it.

* * * * *

Peel and wash 2 pounds of potatoes. Slice them 1/8 inch thick or so. Spread
them into gratin dish. Dot with small pats of butter. Preheat oven to 250°F.

Peel 2 garlic cloves, chop them finely. In a saucepan, boil 1 pint milk, 1
pint heavy cream and the garlic, salt and pepper. Pour this onto potatoes.
Cover dish with aluminum foil, pierce foil a few times with a skewer and
bake for 2 hours.

5 minutes before serving, remove foil and put gratin under broiler until
it's nice and golden.

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:02:58 +0100
--------
Ccracker03 wrote:
> has anyone else heard of these  if so can i have the receipe

Do you mean Gratin Dauphinoise?

I will post the recipe if you need it

============================

From: Anthony <JAWPW1[at]comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:52:03 -0400
--------
Ophelia wrote:
> Do you mean Gratin Dauphinoise?
> I will post the recipe if you need it

Or possibly pommes Dauphine?

============================

From: Tenzo <tenzosan[at]hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:11:16 -0500
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Or possibly pommes Dauphine?

Recipe for both can be found at:
http://www.roninweb.com/Cooks/Training/C1Intro.htm

============================

From: J Quick <nobody[at]nowhere.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:36:59 GMT
--------
Tenzo wrote:
> Recipe for both can be found at:
> http://www.roninweb.com/Cooks/Training/C1Intro.htm

Unfortunately, that isn't a very good recipe and it doesn't seem to closely
resemble the Cordon Bleu recipe that it claims to be.

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:50:43 +0100
--------
Anthony wrote:
> Or possibly pommes Dauphine?

Yes those too:)  I was just giving a plug for my favourites:)

============================

From: ktsheehy3624[at]cs.com (Ktsheehy3624)
Date: 12 Apr 2003 00:48:00 GMT
--------
Ophelia wrote:
>Do you mean Gratin Dauphinoise?
>I will post the recipe if you need it

If I were Edwin, I'd probably tsk tsk and chide those who have
posted with a message to the effect that maybe OP really does
mean potatos [sic] daphne.

============================

From: Ophelia <Ophelia_castle[at]yahoo.co.ok>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:55:04 +0100
--------
Ktsheehy3624 wrote:
> If I were Edwin, I'd probably tsk tsk and chide those who have
> posted with a message to the effect that maybe OP really does
> mean potatos [sic] daphne.

So you would rather everyone here respond with 'NO' instead of trying to
help?  I hope you never respond to a request from me:)

============================

Subject: Re: daphne potatos or dauphin potatoes?
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking

============================

From: dnotes <digitalnotes[at]hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:10:34 -0400
--------
wasnt it dauphin potatoes? might have gotten in wrong but hey that's what i
thought when i saw the subject line…


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