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Subject: Re: German Potato Salad
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking

============================

From: jen 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:11:58 +0000 (UTC)
--------
thats not a german potato salad.  a german potato salad has a vinegar bacon
dressing.  never mayo, never mustard, never eggs, never pickles.

Luckytrim wrote:
> German Potato Salad
>
> 4 cup diced, cooked potatoes
> 1 med. chopped onion
> 3 boiled eggs, chopped
> 1 cucumber or bread & butter pickles, chopped
> 1/4 cup vinegar
> 2 Tbsp. mustard
> 1/2 cup mayonnaise
> 1 cup sour cream
> 1 tsp. celery seed
> 1 tsp. dill weed
> Salt & Pepper
>
> Mix top 4 ingredients.  Heat vinegar, mustard, mayonnaise, sour cream in a
> saucepan.  Pour over the top 4 ingredients.  Add seasonings.  Stir.  Top with
> sliced boiled egg and paprika if desired.
>
> --
> Rec.food.recipes is moderated; only recipes and recipe requests are
> accepted for posting. 

============================

From: stan[at]temple.edu
Date: 15 Aug 2002 14:26:31 GMT
--------
jen wrote:
> thats not a german potato salad.  a german potato salad has a vinegar bacon
> dressing.  never mayo, never mustard, never eggs, never pickles.

Well, my best friend's German mother's potato salad recipe, which she says
was handed down in her family, doesn't include any mayo, but it does have
a vinegar bacon dressing AND also sliced hard boiled eggs. I don't think
there's any mustard in her recipe or pickles. 

============================

From: Ken Knecht 
Date: 15 Aug 2002 17:58:06 GMT
--------
stan@temple wrote:
> Well, my best friend's German mother's potato salad recipe,
> which she says was handed down in her family, doesn't
> include any mayo, but it does have a vinegar bacon dressing
> AND also sliced hard boiled eggs. I don't think there's any
> mustard in her recipe or pickles. 

FWIW, here's my family's German potato salad recipe, as it was 
made by my mother and her mother.

*************************************************************
3 medium red potatoes
1/4 lb. bacon (5 slices) cut into small pieces
1/4 c white vinegar
1/4 c plus 2 tbs water
Salt to taste
1/4 c finely chopped onions
1 or 2 hard-boiled eggs (optional)

Cook potatoes with skins. Peel and slice while still warm. 

Cook bacon crisp. Remove from pan and add vinegar, water, and 
onions to bacon grease. Slowly add rounded tsp of flour. Mix 
well, cook until thickened, pour over sliced potatoes. Then add 
sliced egg or eggs and mix well.

Makes 3 or 4 cups.
*****************************************************************

============================

From: Carmen Bartels 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:15:16 GMT
--------
jen wrote:
> thats not a german potato salad.  a german potato salad has a vinegar bacon
> dressing.  never mayo, never mustard, never eggs, never pickles.

Wrong!
A SOUTHERN german potato salad has a vinegar bacon dressing, a
*NORTHERN* german potato salad is different.

I mostly do it this way:
1-2 pound	potatoes, boiled, peeled, cut into slices, as hot as
		possible
4		eggs, boiled, cubed
1 small jar	cornichons (*)
1/2 pound	vienna sausages (weiners) (**)
3-4		sweet apples, peeled, cubed
1/2 pound	peas, boiled
250 ml (1 Cup)	salad creme (***)

Mix the dry ingredients in a bowl. Dilute the mayo with the leftover
brine of the Cornichons. Season with salt and pepper. Pour over the
salad and enjoy.
Actually this salad tastes good while the dressing had no time to get
into the potatoes and good when the salad had time to rest.

(*)  Cornichons are very small sweet-sour cucumber pickles with mustard
seed in the brine

(**)  you can use any type of sausage that can be eaten cold or boiled
and that is mild in flavour. Though using a garlicky sausages does not
taste bad either the overall taste of this salad is overshadowed by the
garlic

(***) Salatcreme is the official name for low fat (30%) commercial
mayo. The reduction in fat is done by mixing yoghurt into the "real"
stuff. Either I buy fullfat mayo and lots of yoghurt or I use the
already mixed Salatcreme 

Hope the myth of no mayo in german potato salad will be buried ;-)

Carmen,
who remembers the same discussion on the german foodgroup

============================

From: jen 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:27:34 GMT
--------
Carmen Bartels wrote:
> Wrong!
> A SOUTHERN german potato salad has a vinegar bacon dressing, a
> *NORTHERN* german potato salad is different.
>
> I mostly do it this way:
> 1-2 pound potatoes, boiled, peeled, cut into slices, as hot as
> possible
> 4 eggs, boiled, cubed

interesting.  looks like eggs are the norm!  im from the north so my recipe
is a northern one, been in the family for generations.  and kind w/ mustard
is a "mustard" one.  as was always known to me in any case.


============================

From: 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:11:32 GMT
--------
Here is how I make my German Potato Salad

GERMAN-STYLE POTATO SALAD

10 md Potatoes; peeled and cut
 Each -into 1/4" slices
1 md Onion; chopped
8 slices Bacon; cooked and crumbled
2 Cup Vinegar
2 Cup Sugar
2 Cup Water
3 tb Cornstarch
1/2 ts Salt
1/2 ts Pepper
1          ts         Celery seed
3  Eggs; hard-cooked, chopped

Cook potatoes in boiling water 15 to 20 minutes or until tender. Drain well.

Combine remaining ingredients, except eggs and bacon, in a saucepan; cook 20
minutes, stirring frequently.  Pour vinegar mixture over potatoes;
add egg, and bacon then toss.  Serve immediately.

I think this is one of the best German Potato Salad's I have had !!! Pat

============================

From: Alan Zelt 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:31:52 GMT
--------
Carmen Bartels wrote:
> Wrong!
> A SOUTHERN german potato salad has a vinegar bacon dressing, a
> *NORTHERN* german potato salad is different.

Carmen, 

I think I see you post this very same observation once a year. Perhaps
Victor and Mary can incorporate this into the FAQ. 

============================

From: sackv[at]uni-duesseldorf.de (Victor Sack)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:15:01 +0200
--------
[quotes re-arranged for readability]

jen wrote:
> Luckytrim wrote:
> > German Potato Salad
> >
> > 4 cup diced, cooked potatoes
> > 1 med. chopped onion
> > 3 boiled eggs, chopped
> > 1 cucumber or bread & butter pickles, chopped
> > 1/4 cup vinegar
> > 2 Tbsp. mustard
> > 1/2 cup mayonnaise
> > 1 cup sour cream
> > 1 tsp. celery seed
> > 1 tsp. dill weed
> > Salt & Pepper
>
> thats not a german potato salad.  a german potato salad has a vinegar bacon
> dressing.  never mayo, never mustard, never eggs, never pickles.

There is no such thing as a definitive German potato salad.  There are
hundreds of variations, many of them regional.  Some are made with
vinegar, some with vinegar and bacon, some with broth.  These salads can
be served warm or cold. Other kinds are made with eggs, with mayo, with
mustard, with pickles, or with some or all of the above.  These salads
are usually (but not always) served cold.  I would say that the majority
of potato salads are made with mayo plus some other ingredients today,
regardless of the region.  The above recipe is a fairly typical one.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 16 Aug 2002 12:49:45 GMT
--------
Victor Sack wrote:
>There is no such thing as a definitive German potato salad.  There are
>hundreds of variations, many of them regional.  Some are made with
>vinegar, some with vinegar and bacon, some with broth.  These salads can
>be served warm or cold. Other kinds are made with eggs, with mayo, with
>mustard, with pickles, or with some or all of the above.  These salads
>are usually (but not always) served cold.  I would say that the majority
>of potato salads are made with mayo plus some other ingredients today,
>regardless of the region.

Then what you're saying is that the potato salads prepared in comtemporary
Germany are basically generic slop, no different from the various versions
served most anywhere potato salads are prepared, that's fine... but those are
NOT *traditional* German potato salads, in fact those contemporary potato
salads are not even German, they're the worst of American style potato salads
which just happen to be prepared in Germany.  Traditional German potato salads
contain no mayo, instead they incorporate a pork fat based dressing, usually
from smoked pork, and are served hot, or warm, never refrigerated.  There is
nothing traditionally German style about the potato salad recipe posted above,
nothing... that is a typical American style version of the type usually found
at midwest all-you-can-eats and/or trailor park potlucks, typically gawd-awful
slop made with more dressing than potatoes and the bulk of which contains
whatever is required to rid ones fridge of LOs just before they're ripe enough
to go in the garbage.  Only thing keeping that fercocktah recipe from being
authentic trailor park trashy is it's missing  the miniature marshmallows and
blue food coloring.  German indeed... I'm beginning to wonder what's German
about you, Victor.

============================

From: sackv[at]uni-duesseldorf.de (Victor Sack)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:26:10 +0200
--------
Sheldon wrote:
> Traditional German potato salads
> contain no mayo, instead they incorporate a pork fat based dressing, usually
> from smoked pork, and are served hot, or warm, never refrigerated.

Nonsense.  It is ridiculous to call any dish traditionally German -
there is no such thing, except in a very general way.  There was no such
thing as Germany until 1871, the Holy Roman Empire notwithstanding...
not even a customs union until something like 1835.  There was nothing
more than a loose conglomeration of often hostile mini-states with their
own cultures and traditions.  The salad you are describing appears to be
a version of some of Bavarian potato salads, particularly those from the
Franken region.  Many other Bavarian salads, particularly the Munich
version, don't contain any pork products, but instead are prepared with
a dressing made with broth, oil and vinegar, and often also contain
chives or pickles.  Such versions are also popular in the neighbouring
Swabian and Baden regions.  Moving to the north, you will find mayo
being used more often in potato salads.  Rhineland versions are made
with homemade mayo.  The versions to the north and west of Rhine may or
may not contain mayo and are often more complicated and made with a lot
of additional or alternative ingredients, particularly mustard, sour
cream, sausages, other meats, herring, etc., often combining them.  The
salads everywhere are served warm or cold, with 'cold' generally meaning
room temperature.  Those with mayo are more often served cold - I've
never seen a warm Rhineland version.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 17 Aug 2002 11:55:58 GMT
--------
Victor Sack writes:
>Nonsense.  It is ridiculous to call any dish traditionally German -
>there is no such thing, except in a very general way.  There was no such
>thing as Germany until 1871

[assinine posturing snipped]

Makes no difference what that fercocktah region used to be called... go back in
time and there were no potatoes in that part of the world [duh] therefore your
diatribe is at best spurious.  Again, for yoose ignorant "ach-tung" bastards,
there is no mayo in what has come to be known as traditional German potato
salad[period]

============================

From: Kathy Reece 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:24:33 -0500
--------
Sheldon wrote:
> Makes no difference what that fercocktah region used to be called... go back in
> time and there were no potatoes in that part of the world [duh] therefore your
> diatribe is at best spurious.  Again, for yoose ignorant "ach-tung" bastards,
> there is no mayo in what has come to be known as traditional German potato
> salad[period]

The idea that there is only *one* version of potato salad in a country as
large as Germany is ludicrous.  I would suspect that you'd be hard pressed
to find two cooks that make potato salad exactly the same anywhere.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 17 Aug 2002 17:02:48 GMT
--------
Kathy Reece writes:
>The idea that there is only *one* version of potato salad in a country as
>large as Germany is ludicrous.  I would suspect that you'd be hard pressed
>to find two cooks that make potato salad exactly the same anywhere.

I didn't say there was only one version.  There are many versions but none
which have become to be known as traditional German potato salad contain mayo. 
Note I said "Traditional German potato salads", saladS, as in more than one. 
Learn to read.

============================

From: sackv[at]uni-duesseldorf.de (Victor Sack)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:53 +0200
--------
Sheldon wrote:
> Makes no difference what that fercocktah region used to be called... go
> back in time and there were no potatoes in that part of the world [duh]
> therefore your diatribe is at best spurious.  Again, for yoose ignorant
> "ach-tung" bastards, there is no mayo in what has come to be known as
> traditional German potato salad[period]

For you, maybe.  No such recipe has ever come to be known to those who
populate most German regions.  They have their own potato salad recipes,
which are just as traditional, and many of them contain mayo.  You could
as well have taken some family's traditional recipe and proclaimed it to
be a tradition of the whole town where that family happened to reside.
I'm sure traditional Silesian recipes would be Polish ones to you.

============================

From: Dave Smith 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:27:20 -0700
--------
Victor Sack wrote:
> Nonsense.  It is ridiculous to call any dish traditionally German -
> there is no such thing, except in a very general way.  There was no such
> thing as Germany until 1871, the Holy Roman Empire notwithstanding...
> not even a customs union until something like 1835.  There was nothing
> more than a loose conglomeration of often hostile mini-states with their
> own cultures and traditions.

By your rationale, I guess there is no such thing as Italian food either. While we
are at it, we can rule out Indian food, Thai food and a few others.

============================

From: Billy 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:29:26 -0400
--------
Here is our favorite!

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

German Potato Salad

salads

6 slice bacon, crispy fried
1 1/2 cup cold water
3 tablespoon flour
1 medium onion
3 tablespoon sugar
1/4 cup vinegar
6 medium potatoes, boiled & sliced

Remove excess grease from bacon with paper towel. Break bacon into small
pieces. Blend cold water and flour. Pour into saucepan. Add onion, sugar
and vinegar. Heat, stirring, until thickened. Add bacon and potatoes while
still from boiling and frying.

Yield: 8 servings

** Exported from Now You're Cooking! v5.54 **

============================

From: Pat Roehr 
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:47:38 -0500
--------
Billy wrote:
> Here is our favorite!

I may try this. It's different than the one I make, though. Mine has no
sugar, no water, and no flour.

I simply cut up green onions, cube the potatoes, add salt and pepper, and
mix with the crumbled bacon. Then I bring to a boil equal amounts of bacon
grease and cider vinegar, stirring to loosen any little bits of bacon stuck
to the pan. Pour over the potatoes, toss and serve warm. Wonderful!

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 17 Aug 2002 18:57:09 GMT
--------
Dave Smith  writes:
>By your rationale, I guess there is no such thing as Italian food either.
>While we are at it, we can rule out Indian food, Thai food and a few others.

Victor's arguments are passionately illogical.

============================

From: Arri London 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:56:40 -0600
--------
Dave Smith wrote:
> By your rationale, I guess there is no such thing as Italian food either. While we
> are at it, we can rule out Indian food, Thai food and a few others.

It would make sense if one thinks about it. After all
Americans claim there is no such thing as American food;
they say it is too regionalised.

Exactly like in every other country.

============================

From: sackv[at]uni-duesseldorf.de (Victor Sack)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:54 +0200
--------
Dave Smith wrote:
> By your rationale, I guess there is no such thing as Italian food either.
> While we are at it, we can rule out Indian food, Thai food and a few
> others.

By your rationale, I guess you know very little about Italian or Indian
food.  In Germany, a dish is called Indian if it contains curry powder
and pineapple pieces.  I guess you would agree.  Fact is, both Italy
and, much more so India, are highly regionalised as far as their
cuisines are concerned (not to mention other matters).  At least Italy's
population is reasonably homogenous.  In India, there are many different
ethnicities, every one of them with their own culture and traditions.
What is traditional for one may not even have been heard of by the
others.  There are few recipes that can be called pan-German,
pan-Italian, or pan-Indian.  You could as well declare that there is a
traditional European recipe (this would be very popular on rfc), or even
a traditional Western Civilisation recipe (Big Mac, no doubt).  You are
confusing diverse long-term cultural developments with political
entities of the day.

There is a interesting recent post about Indian food by Shankar.  See
Message-ID: .

============================

From: Dave Smith 
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:34:43 -0700
--------
Victor Sack wrote:

> By your rationale, I guess you know very little about Italian or Indian
> food.  In Germany, a dish is called Indian if it contains curry powder
> and pineapple pieces.  I guess you would agree.

Sorry, but you interpretation of my rationale has left me boggled.  I was
responding to your claim that "it is ridiculous to call any dish traditionally
German - there is no such thing, except in a very general way.  There was no
such thing as Germany until 1871"  You have somehow twisted this to be evidence
of my ignorance of Italian or Indian food because Germans call a dish Indian if
it has pineapple pieces and curry powder.  Perhaps you see a connection there,
but I am sure you have left most people as puzzled as I am about the
connection.

>  Fact is, both Italy
> and, much more so India, are highly regionalised as far as their
> cuisines are concerned (not to mention other matters).

No shit Einstein. They were both collections of smaller nations until
relatively recent unification, similar to Germany.

> At least Italy's population is reasonably homogenous.

Yes, *relatively* homogenous. They speak Italian and are predominately Roman
Catholic. There are most definitely regional dishes within what most people
(less anal) refer to as "Italian " cuisine.  It is interesting to note that,
despite regional variations, Italian food is overwhelmingly associated with
pasta served with variation of tomato sauce. Yet, pasta is a relatively new
dish that was introduced by explorer and traders who discovered it in the far
east, and tomatoes were brought over from South America just a few hundred
years ago.  Considering the long history of the various regions and city states
that make up modern day Italy, these are relative newcomers to the traditions
of the regions. Never the less, they are now considered by most to be
traditional. Similarly, the tuberous staple of most northern European
countries, the potato, were unheard of in that region until they were
introduced from the Americas.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 18 Aug 2002 17:57:58 GMT
--------
Dave Smith writes:
>  You have somehow twisted this to be evidence
>of my ignorance of Italian or Indian food because Germans call a dish Indian if
>it has pineapple pieces and curry powder. 

Especially since pineapple is native to the tropical and subtropical areas of
the Americas and only relatively recently (early 20th century) was introduced
in any meaningful quantity to East Asian regions.

Btw, you're wasting your energies attempting logic and reasoning with Victor,
he'll argue his wild claims without offering citations, and if called to
produce will proffer some obscure source that no one else has access to and
can't even be found on the net.

============================

From: Dave Smith 
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:09:29 -0700
--------
Sheldon wrote:
> Btw, you're wasting your energies attempting logic and reasoning with Victor,
> he'll argue his wild claims without offering citations, and if called to
> produce will proffer some obscure source that no one else has access to and
> can't even be found on the net.

I know what you mean, and I won't waste any more energy on him.

============================

From: Arri London 
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:34:12 -0600
--------
Dave Smith wrote:

> Yes, *relatively* homogenous. They speak Italian and are predominately Roman
> Catholic. There are most definitely regional dishes within what most people
> (less anal) refer to as "Italian " cuisine.  It is interesting to note that,
> despite regional variations, Italian food is overwhelmingly associated with
> pasta served with variation of tomato sauce. 

In the US probably it is. Nowhere else that I've been.
Italian food is recognised for the extremely diverse cuisine
that it is.

> Yet, pasta is a relatively new
> dish that was introduced by explorer and traders who discovered it in the far
> east, and tomatoes were brought over from South America just a few hundred
> years ago. 

What are you calling 'relatively new'? Venetians were
supposedly eating a form of pasta they got from the Genoese
in the tenth century or so. I think over 1000 years is
hardly relatively new.
Probably, as you say, introduced by traders, but not from
the far east...rather the middle east. 

> Considering the long history of the various regions and city states
> that make up modern day Italy, these are relative newcomers to the traditions
> of the regions. 

Again, depends on what one calls a 'new' tradition.

============================

From: sackv[at]uni-duesseldorf.de (Victor Sack)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:32:07 +0200
--------
Dave Smith wrote:

> Sorry, but you interpretation of my rationale has left me boggled.  I was
> responding to your claim that "it is ridiculous to call any dish traditionally
> German - there is no such thing, except in a very general way.  There was no
> such thing as Germany until 1871"  You have somehow twisted this to be
> evidence of my ignorance of Italian or Indian food because Germans call a
> dish Indian if it has pineapple pieces and curry powder.  Perhaps you see
> a connection there, but I am sure you have left most people as puzzled as
> I am about the connection.

You boggle easily.  The connection is that calling a regional dish
pan-German, pan-Inndian, etc. provides about the same amount of
information.

> Yes, *relatively* homogenous. They speak Italian and are predominately Roman
> Catholic. There are most definitely regional dishes within what most people
> (less anal) refer to as "Italian " cuisine.  It is interesting to note that,
> despite regional variations, Italian food is overwhelmingly associated with
> pasta served with variation of tomato sauce.

Now it's my turn to boggle...  Associated by whom?  I doubt very much
you mean Italians.  From what I've seen in Italy, they generally take
their food seriously...

> Yet, pasta is a relatively new
> dish that was introduced by explorer and traders who discovered it in the far
> east, and tomatoes were brought over from South America just a few hundred
> years ago.

Pasta is more an ingredient than a dish.  Different pasta dishes are
traditional in different regions.  Why do I have trouble finding
pappardelle sulla lepre in Lombardy or Campania?  And, one of the
traditional pasta dishes in Germany is Spätzle, yet everyone will tell
you it's Swabian, not pan-German.

>  Considering the long history of the various regions and city states
> that make up modern day Italy, these are relative newcomers to the traditions
> of the regions. Never the less, they are now considered by most to be
> traditional.

What dishes are you talking about?  Some pasta dishes, pizza, gelato...
is there anything else?  Is this what Italian food is all about?  BTW,
the most popular dish of them all in today's Germany is probably
'spaghetti carbonara' or 'spaghetti bolognese' and this has been the
case for at least 20 or 30 years, probably longer.  Are they now to be
considered traditional German dishes?

> Similarly, the tuberous staple of most northern European
> countries, the potato, were unheard of in that region until they were
> introduced from the Americas.

And different traditional dishes are made with them in different
regions.  There are preciously few dishes that can be considered
pan-anything, except generic ones that are made all over the world.  You
are actually confirming what I said and you quoted: "it is ridiculous to
call any dish traditionally German - there is no such thing, except in a
very general way." 

Cuisine traditional to the whole country exists only in small
homogeneous countries, or such countries as France, which has been
largerly unified since the reign of Louis XI in the 15th century.  The
always centralistic French governments were an important factor.  Yet,
regional diversity is as pronounced there as anywhere else, too.


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