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Subject: Scalloped potatoes. Potatoes au gratin.
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking

============================

From: Don Saklad <dsaklad[at]nestle.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 26 Jan 2002 23:53:27 -0500
--------
What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
and potatoes au gratin?...

============================

From: Kendall F. Stratton III <k3[at](86_THE_SPAM)maine.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:06:41 -0500
--------
Smile and say "CHEESE" -- that's the difference!

============================

From: nospam[at]spam.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:08:52 GMT
--------
Don Saklad wrote:
> What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
>  and potatoes au gratin?...

The differences are one letter.   Next question.

Dr. I.Q.

============================

From: amoorman[at]visi.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:16:04 -0600
--------
Don Saklad gave this insight:
:What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
: and potatoes au gratin?...

"Au gratin" means "with cheese".

Scalloped potatoes don't have cheese. . . .

============================

From: KSA <ksa[at]no-spam.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:15:41 -0500
--------
Actually ... au gratin means "with a crust".  It's a dish with some kind
of crumb topping that's baked or broiled to form a crunchy crust. 
Basicallly au gratin is the French way to make scalloped potatoes.  
Other differences (depending on the recipe used, of course) are that
scalloped potatoes may or may not have cheese in them and will have more
butter and flour while au gratin will have heavy cream or a combination
of cream and milk.  Either recipe may or may not contain cheese -
although most I've seen for both do contain some cheese.  There is a
common American misconception that "au gratin" means with cheese and it
doesn't at all.  

============================

From: Geneboy <Fiction[at]oz.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:17:55 +1100
--------
KSA wrote:
> Actually ... au gratin means "with a crust".  It's a dish with some kind
> of crumb topping that's baked or broiled to form a crunchy crust.

I believe that gratin with cheese is gratin dauphinoise in french, whilst
plain gratin is without cheese.

>    There is a
> common American misconception that "au gratin" means with cheese and it
> doesn't at all.

I think that's an international misconception, although one of the more
harmless ones.... :-)

Chris

============================

From: Steve Martin <smartco[at]clara.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:54:48 -0000
--------
The gratin is a shallow dish that can go under an overhead grill
(salamander).  Au gratin means cooked in a gratin.  The purpose being to
finish the dish under the heat to form a crust.  The crust can be formed
with breadcrumbs, cheese or nothing at all.
Dauphinoise does not contain cheese.  The long cooking of the potatoes and
cream (or full cream milk) gives a cheesey effect.
Gratin dauphinoise will be finished under the grill, in a gratin, maybe with
a cheese topping.

Scalloped means sliced.

============================

From: Janine <ezbuyNOSPAM[at]home.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:36:49 GMT
--------
Literally, I believe that "au gratin" means "with pan scrapings."  I've also
always thought that it was the scalloped that had more milk or cream and the
au gratin that had more crumbs &amp; butter.  My (french) grandmother's
cauliflower au gratin had simply a crust of bread crumbs browned in butter
(and scraped from the pan) poured over it.

============================

From: amoorman[at]visi.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 04:02:38 -0600
--------
I suppose every culture can corrupt another's phrases -- here in the
USA, "au gratin" means "with cheese".  Whether or not it means that in
France/French.

Like, here in the USA "torte" means "many, many layers" instead of
"rich cake" or whatever it means in Europe!

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 30 Jan 2002 12:35:29 GMT
--------
amoorman writes:
>I suppose every culture can corrupt another's phrases -- here in the
>USA, "au gratin" means "with cheese".  Whether or not it means that in
>France/French.

Moronman, perhaps in your redneck world

"Merriam Webster"

gra·tin

noun
Etymology: French, from Middle French, from grater to scratch
Date: 1806
1 : a brown crust formed on food that has been cooked au gratin; also : a dish
so cooked 
---

>Like, here in the USA "torte" means "many, many layers" instead of
>"rich cake" or whatever it means in Europe!

Like wrong again, Bubba.

"Merriam Webster"

torte

noun
Inflected Form(s):  plural tor·ten /'tor-t&n/ or tortes 
Etymology: German, probably from Italian torta cake, from Late Latin
Date: 1555
: a cake made with many eggs and often grated nuts or dry bread crumbs and
usually covered with a rich frosting 

============================

From: amoorman[at]visi.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:21:15 -0600
--------
Sheldon gave this insight:
:Moronman, perhaps in your redneck world
:
:"Merriam Webster"

Sheldon, what the book says, and what people do are sometimes two
different things.

Go to any middle-of-the road restaurant in the USA and if they have
something like "Potatoes Au Gratin" you can be sure it will be cheesy
scalloped potatoes.

I didn't say what the official meanings were, just what is the common
definition by the mass of people in the USA.

And, if you would like, here's the definition of the French word
"gratin" from my French/English dictionary  (Collins-Gem):

"cheese-topped dish; cheese topping"

You must be young if you think that any dictionary definition of such
a thing is an Immutable Truth!   

It may help to know an "official" definition, but it doesn't mean
that, as a whole,  a culture necessarily uses that definition.

So there, Bubba.

============================

From: KSA <ksa[at]no-spam.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:39:59 -0500
--------
> I suppose every culture can corrupt another's phrases -- here in the
> USA, "au gratin" means "with cheese".  Whether or not it means that in
> France/French.

Oh yay.  My favorite phrase.  Here in America .... 

How about we stop justifying errors by saying Here in America we can
make it mean whatever we want - so there!  (Throw in a neener-neener for
good effect.)

Reminds me of a guy I knew in college who couldn't pass a GSP
(Grammar-Spelling-Punctuation) test for graduation.  I tried to tutor
him but his response to everything was "Well, that's how *I*
say/spell/write it."  Needless to say, he didn't pass the 3rd time
either and got booted from his major.

============================

From: amoorman[at]visi.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:29:10 -0600
--------
KSA gave this insight:
:How about we stop justifying errors by saying Here in America we can
:make it mean whatever we want - so there!  (Throw in a neener-neener for
:good effect.)

Sorry, you can deplore it, and you can try to educate people who are
interested, but the fact remains that it is now a cultural thing for
90% of the population of the USA that "au gratin" means "with cheese".

If I lived in Timbuktoo, I might say that it means "covered with
ground tiddlywinks", and if that's what it means to the people of
Timbuktoo, then that's what it means.

I'm not bragging about it -- it was part of a discussion.


You shouldn't be so quick to be embarassed by the phrase, when it is
informational and might illuminate an international discussion!

============================

From: KSA <ksa[at]no-spam.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:50:15 -0500
--------
> interested, but the fact remains that it is now a cultural thing for
> 90% of the population of the USA that "au gratin" means "with cheese".

Anyone with a brain when corrected will say "Oh, I didn't know that -
I'll remember that for next time" instead of "well, I don't care what it
really means - everyone else I know thinks it means this".  The question
your mother used to ask is pertinent:  if eveyrone else walked into the
middle of traffic, would you?

> You shouldn't be so quick to be embarassed by the phrase, when it is
> informational and might illuminate an international discussion!

LOL.  Another cheap cop out.  Nothing like the ego of the average ugly
American.

============================

From: amoorman[at]visi.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 09:23:01 -0600
--------
KSA gave this insight:
:LOL.  Another cheap cop out.  Nothing like the ego of the average ugly
:American.

As I said, get over being embarrassed by your internal inadequecies,
and participate in a constructive way!

============================

From: Jim Weir <jim[at]rst-engr.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 21:40:24 -0800
--------
You misspelled it.  Around here it is potatoes hog-rotten.

{;-)

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From: Janine <ezbuyNOSPAM[at]home.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:28:46 GMT
--------
Don Saklad wrote:
> What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
>  and potatoes au gratin?...

v. scal·loped, scal·lop·ing, scal·lops
To bake in a casserole with milk or a sauce and often with bread crumbs:
scalloped potatoes.

au gra·tin (grätn, grtn, gr-t) adj.
Covered with bread crumbs and sometimes butter and grated cheese, and
then browned in an oven: potatoes au gratin.

Is that clear?

============================

From: whirld[at]plasa.com (A. Non)
Date: 27 Jan 2002 01:32:20 -0800
--------
Janine wrote:
> au gra·tin (grätn, grtn, gr-t) adj.
> Covered with bread crumbs and sometimes butter and grated cheese, and
> then browned in an oven: potatoes au gratin.
> 
> Is that clear?

Gratin Dauphinois is what we know as potatoes gratin, and it is done with milk.

============================

From: Janine <ezbuyNOSPAM[at]home.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:17:41 GMT
--------
A. Non wrote:
> Gratin Dauphinois is what we know as potatoes gratin, and it is done with milk.

The two definitions above don't seem mutually exclusive at all.  Arguably, potatoes
cooked in milk and/or cream and covered with bread crumbs and/or cheese could be either
scalloped or au gratin.  I think the distinction is actually in the browning.  An au
gratin has been finished with a crust of butter, breadcrumbs and/or cheese.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 27 Jan 2002 18:18:04 GMT
--------
Janine writes:

>The two definitions above don't seem mutually exclusive at all.  

True, either or both techniques may be incorporated into one dish.

>Arguably,
>potatoes cooked in milk and/or cream and covered with bread crumbs
>and/or cheese could be either
>scalloped or au gratin. 

No, they'd be scalloped AND au gratin... ie. "Scalloped Potatoes Au Gratin"..
potato in cream sauce casserole w/ broiled crumb topping.  Btw, the inclusion
or exclusion of cheese has no bearing whatsoever.

============================

From: Janine <ezbuy[at]home.INVALID>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:40:19 GMT
--------
Sheldon wrote:
> No, they'd be scalloped AND au gratin... ie. "Scalloped Potatoes Au Gratin"..
> potato in cream sauce casserole w/ broiled crumb topping.  Btw, the inclusion
> or exclusion of cheese has no bearing whatsoever.

What is it if you add ham &amp; peas?

============================

From: Damsel in dis Dress <damselicious[at]bigfoot.com.invalid>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:21:50 GMT
--------
Janine said:
>What is it if you add ham &amp; peas?

Hotdish!!

Damsel, running and hiding

============================

From: Janine <ezbuy[at]home.INVALID>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:12:17 GMT
--------
Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> Hotdish!!

lol.  I thought it was "Grandma's Potatoes."

============================

From: bob <sailaser[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:56:17 -0500
--------
Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> Hotdish!!

I swear that I did NOT read your reply before I sent my "pretty good" reply!

============================

From: greykits[at]aol.comkittens (karlie)
Date: 27 Jan 2002 23:15:57 GMT
--------
bob wrote:
>I swear that I did NOT read your reply before I sent my "pretty good" reply!

This is it, I have to make scalloped potatoes today!  I have a canned ham that
was part of a gift package, so it would be best used in something like
scalloped potatoes, I never had canned ham before.  I used to make it like the
Joy of Cooking recipe, with layers of potatoes, milk, flour and onions, but
hubby likes it with a can of cream of mushroom soup mixed in.  And, I'll put in
half of a green pepper.  And, peas maybe?  Sounds like a real mess!

============================

From: Damsel in dis Dress <damselicious[at]bigfoot.com.invalid>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:23:02 GMT
--------
Greykits said:
>This is it, I have to make scalloped potatoes today!  I have a canned ham that
>was part of a gift package, so it would be best used in something like
>scalloped potatoes, I never had canned ham before.  I used to make it like the
>Joy of Cooking recipe, with layers of potatoes, milk, flour and onions, but
>hubby likes it with a can of cream of mushroom soup mixed in.  And, I'll put in
>half of a green pepper.  And, peas maybe?  Sounds like a real mess!

I think this is what you call Glop.  *giggle*

============================

From: Janine <ezbuy[at]home.INVALID>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:47:58 GMT
--------
Greykits wrote:
> This is it, I have to make scalloped potatoes today!  I have a canned ham that
> was part of a gift package, so it would be best used in something like
> scalloped potatoes, I never had canned ham before. 

Ha!  I had to, too.  I just finished eating some (with ham and peas).  Sounds like
the perfect thing to do with a canned ham.  Enjoy!

============================

From: greykits[at]aol.comkittens (karlie)
Date: 28 Jan 2002 00:12:12 GMT
--------
Janine wrote:
>Ha!  I had to, too.  I just finished eating some (with ham and peas).  Sounds like
>the perfect thing to do with a canned ham.  Enjoy!

I opened the can of ham - now that was nasty!  It looks like something I would
feed the cats.  I only cut up a little in tiny pieces for the scalloped
potatoes.  I hope it will add some flavor, keeping my fingers crossed!  I think
the cats will have the rest of this little ham for treats.  

============================

From: Janine <ezbuy[at]home.INVALID>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:41:25 GMT
--------
Greykits wrote:
> I opened the can of ham - now that was nasty!  It looks like something I would
> feed the cats. 

I haven't had a canned ham in years, but they used to vary widely in quality.  Some
aren't bad.  And many aren't as bad as they look!  Rinse off a bit and taste it
(with your eyes closed.)  If it's okay, add it to the potatoes in chunks.

Pet the kitties for me.

============================

From: greykits[at]aol.comkittens (karlie)
Date: 28 Jan 2002 05:49:35 GMT
--------
>Pet the kitties for me.

A home without a cat, and a well-fed and a well-petted and properly revered
cat, may be a perfect home, perhaps, but how can it prove it's title?          
              Mark Twain

============================

From: nancree[at]aol.com (Nancree)
Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:10:40 GMT
--------
> I opened the can of ham - now that was nasty! 

I know what you mean about the look of it--but if you score it, spread a
mixture of honey and mustard on it, and bake it for an hour or so, it will look
good, and taste pretty good, too. 

============================

From: Damsel in dis Dress <damselicious[at]bigfoot.com.invalid>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:30:11 GMT
--------
bob said:
>I swear that I did NOT read your reply before I sent my "pretty good"
>reply!

"Pretty good" is a Minnesota thing, isn't it?  I'm getting hungry for
scalloped potatoes.  I know this is sacrilege, but we use the Betty Crocker
boxed stuff for scalloped and au gratin potatoes.  I've never gotten the
hang of the from-scratch stuff, even though I grew up eating it.  

I think I've just issued myself a challenge.  Gonna try to make scalloped
potatoes again.  I'll report back with my shame or glory.

============================

From: greykits[at]aol.comkittens (karlie)
Date: 27 Jan 2002 23:41:19 GMT
--------
The taters are nuking as I write this.  Of course, this whole glop thing will
be baked in the oven, and it will br au gratin with very sharp cheese on the
top, and breadcrumbs, too.  There will also be grilled sirloin steak on the
side.

As for doing it from scratch or with mixes, it's best to do whatever pleases
those who eat it.  Hubby is a big eater, and likes it with the mushroom soup,
so he is happy and well-fed.  I prefer the traditional white sauce way, but I'm
open to any variations, and it's not bad with the soup in it.  

============================

From: bob <sailaser[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:41:26 -0500
--------
Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> "Pretty good" is a Minnesota thing, isn't it? 

Minny-Soda thing? I wouldn't know. I've never been north of Nawth
Cahrolinna.  But I'm down here with the skeeters, big bugs, high humiditity
and hurry-kanes(-;P
bob in fla

(boy, spell-check had a rough time with this reply)

Dinner
Cut up chicken breasts
stir fried in sesame oil with minced ginger, chopped red onions, minced
garlic.  After chicken was almost cooked, added sliced carrots, snow peas,
sliced mushrooms,slivered almonds, chopped red bell pepper. (was that all?)
I love my 2 week old wok shop wok.

============================

From: Damsel in dis Dress <damselicious[at]bigfoot.com.invalid>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:47:22 GMT
--------
bob said:

>Minny-Soda thing? 

That's Minna-soda to you!

>Dinner
>Cut up chicken breasts
>stir fried in sesame oil with minced ginger, chopped red onions, minced
>garlic.  After chicken was almost cooked, added sliced carrots, snow peas,
>sliced mushrooms,slivered almonds, chopped red bell pepper.
>I love my 2 week old wok shop wok.

That sounds like a good dinner.  I've got to come up with some goodies to
stir-fry a couple of chicken breasts with, too.  This will be my first use
of the new Wok Shop wok.  Which one did you buy?

============================

From: bob <sailaser[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:00:40 -0500
--------
Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
>   This will be my first use
> of the new Wok Shop wok.  Which one did you buy?

I got the Carbon Steel, don't remember the size, but it had the helper
handle on the other side.  It's starting to look really...seasoned.  The
aesthetics, chrome and glitter crowd would hate it.  Veggies were actually
from a frozen bag of "stir fry vegetables" from Sam's.  Since I started
using the wok, I must have used over a pound of fresh ginger.  The almonds
were new for tonight.

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 28 Jan 2002 02:05:51 GMT
--------
Damsel in dis Dress writes:
>That's Minna-soda to you!

Here that's a 2¢ plain.

============================

From: Sheryl Rosen <nospam[at]optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 01:26:06 GMT
--------
Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> I think I've just issued myself a challenge.  Gonna try to make scalloped
> potatoes again.  I'll report back with my shame or glory.

Make sure you use starchy potatoes, like Russets (idahos) or even a 
simple All-Purpose Maine (which have really good potato flavor). I would 
not use a waxy potato like red bliss or those smooth skinned California 
"new" white potatoes.  I recently bought a bag of all-purpose Maine 
potatoes, and they were just SO yummy tasting.  You need the starch to 
make the right consistency in the sauce.

============================

From: bob <sailaser[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:54:31 -0500
--------
Janine wrote:

> Sheldon wrote:
>
> > >A. Non wrote:
> > >
>>>>Janine < wrote in message
> > >...
> > >> > Don Saklad wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
> > >> > >  and potatoes au gratin?...
<<<<<
<<<<<
BIG SNIP<
<<<<<
> What is it if you add ham &amp; peas?

Sounds pretty good!

============================

From: Sheryl Rosen <nospam[at]optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 01:22:41 GMT
--------
Janine wrote:
> What is it if you add ham &amp; peas?

Supper.
 
(add a salad to balance the overabundance of starch, though...maybe some 
sliced fruit for dessert.)

============================

From: penmart01[at]aol.como (Sheldon)
Date: 27 Jan 2002 16:19:31 GMT
--------
Janine writes:
>v. scal·loped, scal·lop·ing, scal·lops
>To bake in a casserole with milk or a sauce and often with bread crumbs:
>scalloped potatoes.
>
>au gra·tin (grätn, grtn, gr-t) adj.
>Covered with bread crumbs and sometimes butter and grated cheese, and
>then browned in an oven: potatoes au gratin.
>
>Is that clear?

Not only clear, but perfectly correct.  Scalloped means in sauce, whether with
cheese or not... scalloped has not a whit to do with how potatoes are cut, they
can be diced or shredded, as well as the more common sliced... nor does
scalloped require potatoes... a casserole of french cut green beans in sauce
would be scalloped green beens.  Gratin refers only to a toasted crumb topping.
 Most often what one meets up with is "Scalloped Potatoes Au Gratin"...
potatoes in sauce with a toasted crumb topping.  Sometimes the gratin (topping)
contains cheese/butter, but not necessary.  There exist special gratin bakeware
(generally oval), but they too are unnecessary to the dish.

============================

From: Jill McQuown <jmcquown[at]bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:35:50 -0600
--------
Don Saklad wrote:
> What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
>  and potatoes au gratin?...

The latter one includes cheese.

============================

From: nancree[at]aol.com (Nancree)
Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:14:06 GMT
--------
>> What exactly are the differences between scalloped potatoes
>>  and potatoes au gratin?...
>
>The latter one includes cheese.

No, "au gratin" merely refers to being browned under a "grate", or a broiler.
No cheese, strictly speaking, although it can, of course, be used.

============================

From: Don Saklad <dsaklad[at]nestle.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:24:39 -0500
--------
Thank you for the detailed explanations folks!

How do the details mentioned in all the information recounted here
explain the following products' labelling?...

http://www.bettycrocker.com/prodandpromo/products/prod_cp.asp

http://www.hungryjack.com/Products/default.asp
http://www.hungryjack.com/products/specialtypotatoes.asp

============================

From: Damsel in dis Dress <damselicious[at]bigfoot.com.invalid>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:28:43 GMT
--------
Don Saklad said:

>How do the details mentioned in all the information recounted here
>explain the following products' labelling?...

In the packaged potato industry, au gratins are scalloped potatoes with
cheese.

>http://www.bettycrocker.com/prodandpromo/products/prod_cp.asp

These are goooood.  Just the right touch of onion.

>http://www.hungryjack.com/Products/default.asp
>http://www.hungryjack.com/products/specialtypotatoes.asp

Not nearly as good as Betty Crocker, IMO, but they're okay in a pinch.

Damsel, who admits to keeping BC au gratins around


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